How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

topic posted Tue, May 11, 2004 - 5:59 PM by  Pablo
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Hi all,

The term "fiscal conservative" means different things to different people. Some might say President Bush is a "fiscal conservative", given his aggressive package of tax cuts. Is an aversion to taxes enough to make you a "fiscal conservative?"

Others would say a better definition of "fiscal conservative" is President Clinton. He promoted "pay-as-you-go" spending, which means that any dollar in tax cuts has to be matched by a commensurate reduction in spending. Some might also extend this definition to say that "fiscal conservatism" means making sure the government can meet its current and future obligations, and that the budget numbers are free of "smoke-and-mirrors" accounting gimmicks.

I don't mean to disparage anyone's point of view. I'm just curious because I've heard so many interpretations of the term.

So, I pose the question to you, friends. How do you define "fiscal conservatism"?
posted by:
Pablo
Oakland Downtown
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  • I've always thought that the term attracted those who want to cut the size of the State - and are not in line with religious conservatives who want to control your personal life.
    • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

      Wed, May 12, 2004 - 10:35 AM
      The way I see it, is that while I support socially liberal things (abortion, sex before marriage, gay marriage) one has to think about their own welfare...and in this society, money is an important factor in that. Things that serve society better (the death penalty, for example) tend to be seen as right wing, but, like Michael said, it is about having more control of your personal life.
      • agreed here - i'm from a small town originally, with a family running its own business -- socially i support a lot of initiatives, but know that my family struggles to find success because of thesky-rocketing costs of owning your own business, even if its just a husband and wife opperation. i seek to better the common good, but do it in the most efficient, cost effective manner possible... i seek to understand problems fully and seek solutions, hold those solutions accountable for results and not be afraid to change things if they're not working... how does that equate to a specific budgeting tactic? i'm not sure exactly, but i know if i was running the show i'd be focused on truly reducing cost of delivery and continual process improvement like most businesses do.
        • Re: How do you define

          Wed, May 19, 2004 - 5:00 PM
          Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

          Here's what I struggle with. The federal budget is $2.4 trillion. Of that, about 2/3 of it is what's officially called "non-discretionary spending", sometimes also called "automatic spending". That's money which is spent without Congress voting on it or debating it. Regardless of what any politician -- "conservative" or "liberal" -- tells you, that $1.6 trillion is already spent and there is nothing he or she can do about it. That money is mostly used up by health care, social security, and interest payments on the national debt.

          Of the remainder, $800 billion or so, a little more than half is defense spending, and another good-sized chunk is for homeland security. That leaves just about $280 billion, or about 12 cents on the dollar, for everything else the government does: Education, Treasury, Commerce, Transportation, State Department, Agriculture, Interior, etc.

          There are esentially no Congressmen or Senators in america, liberal or conservative, who are officially on the record as supporting cuts in either defense or homeland security. Both are as close to "sacred" as can be.

          Given that the deficit is going to be over $400 billion this year, it strikes me that the numbers simply do not add up. The government only takes in about $2 trillion in tax collections and, before anyone in Washington even gets up in the morning, is already on the hook for about $2.12 trillion in spending.

          According to budget experts, the only ways to balance the federal budget are to either drastically cut the services it offers (specifically Medicare, Social Security, or Defense/Homeland Security) or significantly raise taxes. That means paying retirees less money or offering old people less health care coverage. And already the USA's average life expectancy is 3 years less than our neightbor to the north, Canada. Cutting old people's health care is just going to make that gap bigger.

          As for "fraud, waste, and abuse", suppose you could cut out 10% of all the remaining stuff on the table. Any manager that can accomplish that is a pretty competent one, I'd say. Even given that, You would still only cut the deficit by about $28 billion.

          So, my question is, as a "fiscal conservative" do you favor deep cuts, serious tax increases, or big deficits? Those are the only three realistically available options, as far as I know.
          • Re: How do you define

            Thu, May 20, 2004 - 5:43 PM
            In my line of work, we had a third option - reduce cost of delivery. I think it exists in government too. I'm not simply talking about wasteful spending, I'm talking to structural overhauls in the way we do business. Using technological advances in Minnesota, we've found ways to change and enhance our offerings to allow greater service at a lower cost. Implementation of kiosk systems, more electronic transactions, etc across the board, installing open source software solutions, bidding out more gov't services to competive public industry w/ tight gov't oversight, etc.

            If working in that direction couldn't produce results, then personally I favor cuts before tax increases; but i don't think that it and taxes are the only two options on the table. Business and local / state governments have been finding ways to restructure, change practices and implement better technology to drive down cost of operation, and it has worked there. Minnesota is a good example of a state that has done a lot of restructuring to reign in a budget defecit without dramatic service cuts and no increases in taxes.
            • Re: How do you define

              Thu, July 1, 2004 - 11:00 AM
              I stil like your idea, especially the concept of updating our system. Most of it's common sense. I can't remember the exact time frame, but Reader's Digest had an article about wasteful government spending. They talked about an agency that was responsible for making sure all the farmers in the country had electricity. Something that dated back to the 30's but was still in place & got several million dollars. Why?
              I tend to favor cost effectiveness in all things, especially government programs. Keeping kids in school has proven to help them stay out of gangs & drugs, especially when you start them in pre-school. Making sure every kid in the country gets their shots helps keep them out of the hosptial & the emergancy rooms, saving local governments from having to pay to make them healthy. (can you tell I'm a parent!:>) Stuff like that. Why not do that to government.

              Budget not balanced on time? Then legislators get their pay docked. Budget not balanced at all? Then legislators have to contribute 5% of their pay every year to help make up the difference. Bonus awards to the ones who come up with ways to improve it, fix it or just plain help it. A grand prize to anyone who make it permanent. A good CEO can get all kinds of perks for doing a good job, but get tossed for being bad & jail time for raiding the company coffers. Let's see that applied to Congress, see how long before we have a whole new group in there.

              How about everyone who gets a free ride through government support. Why not require mandatory public service hours? Now, if you're to crazy to function, then maybe you can't contribute. Especially if you're dangerous to others. But there are lots of people who have their way paid by the government who are basically functional individuals who don't give anything back for their money.

              Having a physical handicap doesn't necessarily mean you can't enrich the lives of the elderly or home bound seniors, or mentor a child. And before anyone says it, yes, some peoples handicaps mean just that, but not most, & certainly not all. Besides the reward would be three fold -- first, the government would be getting something for their money, so people could stop griping about dead beat welfare, disablilty, etc collecting people; second the person contributing would be doing something to enrich thier community & themselves, & third programs that desperately need volunteers would have them.

              How about prisoners in jail? Being in jail shouldn't mean getting a free ride. They should work 40 hr weeks like everybody else. They may not earn their keep, but they can help pay off part of it.

              Basically, anyone or thing we pay for needs to give back to us somehow. Payback what's owed, with the intrest being not in money, but in time & sweat.
            • Re: How do you define

              Mon, July 5, 2004 - 6:52 PM
              Allowing private business to bid on the people's money is a form of welfare for businesses. As public assistance fraud is common, so too are similar scams in the awarding of government contracts. HUD or Section 8 housing would be a good example of this, and I'm sure in the comming years we'll begin to hear more about the missing billions.

              Minnesota has retooled, but I do not believe that is the primary reason it has been able to handle deficits in stride. Minnesota has an IMPRESSIVE concentration of public and private business with a small population of only around 5 million. This supplies the tax flow necessary to fill in holes. A review of the Department of Finance's website convinced me of this. Of course having this business portfolio is a result of decades of excellent tax policy which continue to benefit the people of your state.
          • Unsu...
             

            Three choices

            Sat, June 19, 2004 - 6:04 PM
            My short answer: yes, yes, & no, respectively. Deficit spending has produced a debt of nearly seven TRILLION and climbing. Last I checked, Congress voted to set the debt ceiling at $7.4T--over three times our current intake in taxes.

            I object to the comparison w/Canada. Its population is barely a tenth of ours, its currency is weaker, and its taxes are much higher. I don't think our goal should be to emulate them in this fashion, particularly given their slipshodly administered socialized medicine.

            Also, the "relatively uncontrollable" spending (Congressional definition, not mine) isn't uncontrollable, not even relatively. Congress could pass legislation to stop it all, were they so inclined. But a lot of grumpy citizens would vote them out of office if they did, so those ballot mice aren't about to do that.

            Government waste isn't possible to eliminate under our current form of government. Even if government were run by honest clairvoyant geniuses (clearly not the case), it would STILL be incredibly wasteful. Many government programs which require spending, such as disaster relief, don't produce anything tangible to the taxpayer until something goes wrong.

            My solutions: first, lose unconstitutional programs including, but not limited to the NEA, agricultural price supports, the war on drugs, faith-based initiatives and the department of homeland security.

            Second, make "homeland security" more cost-effective and efficient by consolidating the FBI, CIA, NSA, NSC and the department of homeland security. We'll save a fortune in payroll and streamline our security systems.

            Third, amend the constitution to provide for non-elective health care for all Americans. Fiscally, it makes more sense. I live in Texas, where we've just cut the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and every dollar the state saved by doing it is cost the taxpayers $3-$5 in caring for uninsured children and everyone they infect! It's not only moral to insure them, it's cost-effective as well. Take a beat to admire the synergy...

            Fourth: kill all income taxes (personal, corporate, AND investment) and replace them all with a consumption tax which leaves all current tax exemptions on goods and services intact. This will not significantly affect workers: they'll lose nothing to withholding taxes but get no tax refunds, they'll save more but there'll be a sudden shock of inflation which will make the $ worth proportionately less. The working poor will be particularly better off, since food and medicine are already sales-tax exempt. The wealthy will have to shift their focus, since investing will no longer be taxed but frivolous spending will be, and tax dodgers such as drug dealers will now find a flat rate of say, 17%, of every dollar going to Uncle Sam.

            I doubt whether you'll consider my suggestions realistically available options, but I have hope.
            • Re: Three choices

              Mon, July 5, 2004 - 7:00 PM
              Richard, a consumption tax wont work either. My retiree grandparents are quite wealthy and draw in a lot of money from investments, but their cost of living individually is not much more than my own. I don't believe they should be paying the same amount of taxes as me when they're drawing an income of 10x more.

              Poor families don't save, they'll use what income they have available to provide for basic needs and services. This is why the lump sum tax return benefits low income families. Inflation hurts working families because it drives consumer prices up while wages remain the same. It is NOT a viable solution.

              The most simple solution, without rewriting any tax law is to simply reduce spending. It's just that simple.
        • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

          Thu, July 1, 2004 - 10:24 AM
          I'd have to applaude that idea. If we ran the government more like a business, with the end product being a happy, functional society, we'd be much better off. Ever see the movie DAVE with Kevin Kline & Sogorny Weaver (sp)? Where he calls in his friend the accountant?
          • Unsu...
             

            Dave!

            Thu, July 1, 2004 - 11:26 AM
            Yes, and I'm so glad you did too! Sigourney Weaver saw Kevin Kline's character doing what so many educated Americans who don't work in gov't would like to do--see the budget streamlined by somebody who isn't financially vested in the outcome.
  • Unsu...
     

    Fiscal Conservatism

    Sat, June 19, 2004 - 5:36 PM
    Fiscally liberal republicans (not an oxymoron) borrow because they're unwilling to tax enough to support their agenda.

    Fiscally liberal democrats (not a redundancy) overtax the workers to support their agenda, some of which isn't constitutionally justified, and some of it benefits the few at the expense of the many.

    Clinton had the right idea fiscally, but didn't go far enough with it. He "balanced" the budget through accounting tricks like off-budget spending, some of the "smoke and mirrors" you mention--but it's still more than anyone's done since the 60s.

    I'm a fiscally conservative democrat, and I believe the country needs to live within its means. Those means aren't infinite, they just appear so. Let's decide what we're willing for our government to pay for, and then pay for it through revenue acquisition. Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society--Oliver Wendell Holmes.

    If we decide our government needs to pay for something that isn't constitutional justified, then let's amend the constitution accordingly as our founding fathers intended. (For those in doubt on this point, refer to Washington's position regarding flouting the constitution without amending it and the potential for tyranny.)

    As a side issue, I'd like to see Congress behaving more assertively, and not just on this subject. Why hasn't there been a declaration of any way since 1945? But that's just my opinion, and I look forward to hearing yours.
  • One who supports economic fidelity. This is to say any individual or group that is committed to ensuring stability of the dollar and markets by ethical means for the welfare of the commonwealth.

    The fundamental purpose of the market is to elevate the citizens of a country. If indications of fraud, over or under taxation, manipulation of price indexes and deficits begin to appear, the fiscally conservative leader will implement a policy to stabilize taxation and spending, prosecute fraud and ensure price inflation does not begin to interfere with vital services. Sadly the "conservatives" say that such plans would be interventionist and would interfere in the "free market." However, the free market cannot exist without aggressive enforcement of our law.
    • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

      Mon, August 9, 2004 - 10:43 PM
      I'm fascinated by the range of answers out there. Thanks so much to all those who responded.

      Here's what bothers me...

      The federal government has a budget of $2.4 trillion per year. The economy as a whole -- GDP, that is -- is about $13 trillion.

      Of that $2.4 trillion, only about $800 billion, or one third, is what's called "discretionary spending". That's the part of the budget that congress actually votes and debates on. The other 2/3 is what's called "automatic spending"... no one in either political party debates it or votes on it. Itjust happens. Social security, medicare, interest on the national debt, etc. all fall into this category.

      I will bet my next paycheck, meager though it is, that there is NOT ONE SINGLE CONGRESSMAN in America - Republican or Democrat -- who advocates cutting social security, medicare, medicaid, or interest payments on the national debt.

      Of the $800 billion in discretionary spending, over half of that is national defense. And again, there might be fewer than 5 congressmen out of 453 who think that number is too high.

      All of this means that EVRRYTHING else the federal government does -- highways, education, homeland security, prisons, national parks, printing money, testing drugs and SUVs for safety, agricultural inspections cleaning up toxic waste dumps -- comes out of that last $400 billion.

      So here's my question to all those "fiscal conservatives" out there. The national deficit is about $450 billion. The only two available alternatives for reducing it are to raise taxes or to cut into very popular middle class entitlements. Defense is sacred, since there are simply no elected officials in either party willing to cut it.

      As a "fiscal conservative", which do you favour?
      • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

        Tue, August 10, 2004 - 6:42 AM
        I disagree entirely with your conclusion. The alternative is to stimulate private sector growth into new markets so we increase our GDP. For example, the next wave of paper and green energy products for off-grid communities in asia, africa and the americas. By growing hemp and switching from trees we'd drive the world paper prices down so low that everyone would be buying from us. 'Green' energy is a trillion dollar business that isn't being tapped.
        • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

          Sat, August 28, 2004 - 12:03 PM
          or the failing bio-tech because of bush's stem cell policies.
          • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

            Mon, October 25, 2004 - 5:45 PM
            I am definitely on the fiscally conservative side of the Democrat party. I have seen myself that businesses, private charities and houses of worship can do so much to provide service to the people and to help people through tough times. They usually do it in a way that is a lot less wasteful than the government. However, businesses tend to follow the profit margin and charities are not accountable to the people and churches and synagogues are terribly local in their effect. We still need government to step in where and when other services are not available.

            In this way, I am not in favor of every person for him or herself but I am in favor of encouraging job growth rather than expanding programs. Middle class families with kids and small business owners (maybe under 50 employees) need to get the lion's share of tax cuts. Richer folks spend all day growing their own assets, all of the rest of us don't have the time or expertise. I actually like the idea that my tax money and my social security goes to lift up lots of other people, but I don't like that Congressman X or Senator Y gets to pander to his or her constituency by building a brand new courthouse or a stadium or whatever when the money is best spent somewhere else. E.G. This whole distribution of funds for homeland security and education makes me well ....scowl. Kids in the county next door get 2 full sets of brand new textbooks each. Kids about 100 miles away go to school in a run down 50 year old building.
  • Re: How do you define "fiscally conservative"?

    Mon, November 14, 2005 - 10:37 AM
    I suppose one is "fiscally conservative" if one does not support wasteful spending, as well as lower taxes. I do not think that today's conservatives are really "fiscally conservative". Because of the huge transportation bill with tons of earmarks for pork projects (such as the infamous "Bridge to Nowhere" in Alaska). But they don't want to cut these pork projects, but they're more than willing to cut things that many Americans need and/or enjoy, such as Medicare, tax reductions for homeownership, etc.

    Many people believe that fiscal conservatism simply is lower taxes and making everything privatized so the government doesn't have to pay for it. Schools, social security, and even our weather forecasting are all items that people want privatized!

    I'm all for lower taxes, but I didn't favor Bush's tax cuts because I never felt like my taxes were realistically lowered. I think that spending cuts need to be done, and spending cuts should be done first on things that benefit very few Americans, such as pork.

    It really amazes me that conservatives whine on how people are looking to the government for handouts, while at the same time themselves looking to our federal budget for a handout for their own pork project. Some things should be spent using state money and federal money should never be touched for that.

    Perry

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